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View Full Version : Rad Valves or V force?



vozzy
06-08-2005, 06:38 PM
Which is better, Boyesen Rad Valves, or V-Force reeds? The Boyesen's are cheaper, are the V forces worth the money? Am I headed in the right direction w/ looking at reeds? Need more bottom end.

odaen
06-08-2005, 07:21 PM
I've yet to hear a single builder recommend anything other than VForce Reeds. I bought VF3 reeds and so many other mods were done at the same time, that it would be pretty ignorant for me to try and tell you what difference they made. I've heard that they make significant gains in throttle response and I have seen numerous dyno plots that show they help out with peak horsepower as well.

crazyracer
06-08-2005, 07:30 PM
no comment...it'll just start another arguement...lol. Good luck finding a set cheaper than g3 reeds with as much performance as they do.

Banshee
06-08-2005, 07:48 PM
One set of reeds to another your looking at same power but different curves. So you really have to go out there and dig up some Dyno's and figure how you want your powercurve to react. I know 1dirracing has one on there homepage that is done by an independent company. I have not seen VF or Boyseen dyno's. Sometimes I think these big companies just sell by there name because I never can find a dyno but maybe I just didn't look hard enough.

CHAD
06-08-2005, 08:48 PM
Well I run Vforce 2's, but I do have a set of Rad Valves with new reeds, if your interested. Send me an offer soon if you want them, cause if not I'm trading them very soon.

99Banshee
06-08-2005, 10:07 PM
Reed Valves should help, the more mods you do the more the reed valves will help with power output. I need something besides the stock reed valves

odaen
06-08-2005, 10:45 PM
Here's the only dyno sheet I've seen comparing reed valves. If 1dir was kind enough to loan me a set, I'd pick up the tab for the dyno and do comparisons with VF3's in both of my shee's, but I don't see that happening for some reason.

http://www.planetsand.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/216493/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1


at $248.20, G3's are on the high end of the price list

91LT250R
06-08-2005, 11:41 PM
Here's the only dyno sheet I've seen comparing reed valves. If 1dir was kind enough to loan me a set, I'd pick up the tab for the dyno and do comparisons with VF3's in both of my shee's, but I don't see that happening for some reason.

http://www.planetsand.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/216493/page/0/fpart/1/vc/1


at $248.20, G3's are on the high end of the price list
Wow. If that dyno graph is authentic, and it seems to be, the G3 hype on this site has just been a bunch of smoke.

lt250rjedi
06-09-2005, 08:36 AM
I run Boyesen in my 91 quadracer, and have had good luck with them. I can't comment on a Banshee setup, I have never owned one. I wonder if they make the V3's for my racer? Everything I have read about them has been good, and most every pro racer uses them. If my Boyesen's ever go bad, and they make a V3 for my quad, that's what I will try.

flotek
06-09-2005, 09:49 AM
boyseen carbon fiber rad valves will be better much than just stock ,alot of people feel the c.f. rad valves are a really good add on for low end rpm on a yamaha banshee

sheefreak
06-09-2005, 09:52 AM
V-force fo sho!

fiveOnick
06-10-2005, 12:43 AM
Wow. If that dyno graph is authentic, and it seems to be, the G3 hype on this site has just been a bunch of smoke.

Finally someone says it and has the graph to prove it. If anyone doubts Kevin (gpracerx's) ability to test them correctly maybe you should take a look at his project blown EFI sabertooth honda putting out 151hp.

Boysen rad valves work well, to me they only lack throttle response and overrev that the VF have. Other than that and compared to stock they work just fine.

crazyracer
06-11-2005, 02:17 PM
While that dyno analysis may seem fit for an indy car, the RPM and Power range is WAY off for most low end to mild atvs. I most quads stock only make 30-45 peak hp and thats about at 7500 rpm....not saying that ported shees get a lot more, they prolly do. I'm just saying that dyno would comfort me more if they showed the range from 0-8000 rpm, instead of 6500-11000.

250-zilla
06-11-2005, 11:14 PM
I run V-Force Delta's in my lt250. they were in there when i bought it and ive never run anything else though, so i guess i have nothing to compare it to... :blah:

odaen
06-12-2005, 12:47 AM
I'd pick up the tab for the dyno and do comparisons with VF3's in both of my shee's, but I don't see that happening for some reason.

I didn't see the part on 1dir's website about their limited effectiveness with certain weedeater RPM range 2 stroke motors. I got the opposite impression, that they are the shizz for any reed valved 2 stroke.

fiveOnick
06-12-2005, 01:36 AM
While that dyno analysis may seem fit for an indy car, the RPM and Power range is WAY off for most low end to mild atvs. I most quads stock only make 30-45 peak hp and thats about at 7500 rpm....not saying that ported shees get a lot more, they prolly do. I'm just saying that dyno would comfort me more if they showed the range from 0-8000 rpm, instead of 6500-11000.

Why do you need another dyno chart? Its pretty obviously, when it all boils down G3's are the same old fashion reed design as everything else and from the chart you can see they performed about the same as everything else. It doesnt take a genius to figure out HHHMMMM, V-force has double the surface area in which opens to produce flow, it thus has to open half the distance to flow an equal amount which leads to better throttle response and over rev. Like Kane said one time its just basic physics. Its flatass a ground breaking design, there maybe others on the market that are more durable but not any that will outperform.

sredish
06-20-2005, 02:00 AM
Agreed five0. The rad valves and all perform very well and the difference might not be a huge amount, but as was said, there is double the surface area and the response is well worth the difference to me. I don't tend to be in the overrev area a lot, so that's not as important, but throttle response is everything to me and if your buying something to perform, why not get the most out of it.

On a side note - I have heard nothing in regards to the differences in "feel" from the Delta 2's and the G3's. I haven't heard they lose performance, but they perform similarly to the Delta 2's. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another set of Delta 2's and throw in there, if they're still available over the G3's, haven't bought any in a little while.

sparkzilla
06-20-2005, 10:29 AM
In the midst of all this reed talk I have to throw in my .02 I put the G3's on my shee and it made a hella big difference over the Vforce that I had before. My shee seems to be a bit more responsive too. But it comes on harder and I am really happy with my choice.

fiveOnick
06-20-2005, 10:51 AM
Agreed five0. The rad valves and all perform very well and the difference might not be a huge amount, but as was said, there is double the surface area and the response is well worth the difference to me. I don't tend to be in the overrev area a lot, so that's not as important, but throttle response is everything to me and if your buying something to perform, why not get the most out of it.

On a side note - I have heard nothing in regards to the differences in "feel" from the Delta 2's and the G3's. I haven't heard they lose performance, but they perform similarly to the Delta 2's. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another set of Delta 2's and throw in there, if they're still available over the G3's, haven't bought any in a little while.


Are you talking about the VF 2 vs the VF 3 or actually the G3's which are totally different.

Sparkzilla you must have had something off, like jetting, with the V force if they didn't perform as well as the G3's. I have never ever seen any independant test where the VF , or same design such as ESR, were not the strongest performing reed hands down. Nor have I ever heard of anyone who was not pleased with how they performed or said they didnt improve the power of the bike over what they previously had. To me this is pointless for someone to try and argue anymore the proof is already shown and should be obvious just from a design standpoint.

ATC330Rrider
12-26-2005, 12:23 PM
fiveOnick...can you show me the obvious proof? I have a rad valve, but would buy a v force or other cage if someone could show me a dyno run sheet on all of them. You stated that you have obvious proof, so I'm interested in seeing it.

Thanks for your help.

flotek
12-26-2005, 01:01 PM
check the link" Odaen " posted i n the first page of thsi thread .

ATC330Rrider
12-26-2005, 07:57 PM
I see a chart with "claims" of flow, but did not see any dyno sheets. I don't want to sound arrogant, but I see these arguments all the time and have never seen any proof that one is better than the other.

flotek
12-26-2005, 08:03 PM
http://www.planetsand.com/memberphotos/216493-reeds.jpg

boysens arent in there, but they are not nearly as good as Delta vforce form what ive tried and seen ,

ATC330Rrider
12-26-2005, 10:19 PM
doesn't that seem odd that Boyesen would be left off the list? FMF is on it?!?!?! And who the he!! is Carbontec? (I know who they are, but it is not as big an name as Boyesen) Boyesen is one of the oldest names in the business and that wasn't included in the comparison? Weird. I would be most curious about that one because the rad valve is the only one piece block. All the rest use the stock intake which I found to be small. obstructive and constrictive.

I have to be honest, I run a rad valve because I was able to port it to my needs. I have matched my reed block to the exact measurement of the carb for as smooth as possible flow from the carb to the reedblock. As it states in my mod list, I run a modified KX500 valve which gives me about 3mm more volume at the reed. I then run carbon fiber reeds to combat the "large petal" problem. I don't expect my exact combination to be on the dyno run. I, however, am surprised that the rad valve was left off the list. hmmm.

crazyracer
12-26-2005, 10:30 PM
man, that dyno chart is dumb as hell!!!! Sure V-force may be the best at from 6,500 to 11,000rpm...but anyone in their right damn mind knows that our quad don't normally run at those levels. Heck, i think a trx250r with a stock CDI is capable of running 7500 (absolute max) before it looses all power. My mind won't ever be settled if people keep posting these Dyno charts that are based on Indy Car motors, not the real thing.

flotek
12-26-2005, 10:52 PM
man, that dyno chart is dumb as hell!!!! Sure V-force may be the best at from 6,500 to 11,000rpm...but anyone in their right damn mind knows that our quad don't normally run at those levels. Heck, i think a trx250r with a stock CDI is capable of running 7500 (absolute max) before it looses all power. My mind won't ever be settled if people keep posting these Dyno charts that are based on Indy Car motors, not the real thing.


this isnt an indy car crazy racer, this is simply a modifed banshee engine perfectly capable of those rpms . the reed sytem is not rocket science technology .its an unnessecary evil used to stop back flow charge /pressure into the carbs and stil l allow intake charge to enter the cylinders ,by design the vforce literally has twice the flowing reed surface as the other designs .another way to get by this surface area is to run very thin reeds material like carbon tech or TDR reeds ,which work almost as good but dont hold up on higly modded engines. yo ucan carve ,grind and shape and modify the boots, manifolds ,and wings in your aftermarket cages all yo u want but the reed surface area and reed material is whats gonna give yo u the added gains youd likely experiance. the boysens arent on the chart but i ve ran most all these (including rad valves) and theirs a reason the vforce are used by all top draggers and racers ,because they flow the most and are simply the best yo u can buy hands down . but thats not saying theres no gains i n the other aftermarket cages ,some of them are probably close to the performance of vforce reeds .

fiveOnick
12-26-2005, 11:02 PM
this isnt an indy car crazy racer, this is simply a modifed banshee engine perfectly capable of those rpms . the reed sytem is not rocket science technology .its an unnessecary evil used to stop back flow charge /pressure into the carbs and stil l allow intake charge to enter the cylinders ,by design the vforce literally has twice the flowing reed surface as the other designs .another way to get by this surface area is to run very thin reeds material like carbon tech or TDR reeds ,which work almost as good but dont hold up on higly modded engines. yo ucan carve ,grind and shape and modify the boots, manifolds ,and wings in your aftermarket cages all yo u want but the reed surface area and reed material is whats gonna give yo u the added gains youd likely experiance. the boysens arent on the chart but i ve ran most all these (including rad valves) and theirs a reason the vforce are used by all top draggers and racers ,because they flow the most and are simply the best yo u can buy hands down . but thats not saying theres no gains i n the other aftermarket cages ,some of them are probably close to the performance of vforce reeds .

That was an unbiased dyno test that Kevin Gigot was kind enough to conduct to show real time results. And yes thats a godamn banshee dyno sheet and thats where they make power when slightly modified. Shit, why do you even need a dyno to prove it, anyone should be able to tell the V-force has more flow potential. It has double the surface area, so it can have stiffer reeds that can open half the distance of a normal valve to flow the same volume of fuel. What does that =unmatched flow potential, unmatched over rev potential. Now there is nothing wrong with a rad valve, they flow real nice. Number 2 in my book, but they do not have the response that a V-force setup has. They can't, physics wont allow for it to flow more and respond better. Actually wont allow for equal.

odaen
12-27-2005, 02:53 AM
man, that dyno chart is dumb as hell!!!! Sure V-force may be the best at from 6,500 to 11,000rpm...but anyone in their right damn mind knows that our quad don't normally run at those levels. Heck, i think a trx250r with a stock CDI is capable of running 7500 (absolute max) before it looses all power. My mind won't ever be settled if people keep posting these Dyno charts that are based on Indy Car motors, not the real thing.

keep telling yourself that, maybe it helps you sleep at night, along with the visions of the tooth fairie and santa claus. i just checked out 1dir's site again, and I didn't see any disclaimers about your "indy" motor application. funny, but now i'm all giddy knowing that I have an 'indy" motor too. i'm glad that I didn't fall victim to their website marketing hype since my motor falls outside of their scope......."MORE FLOW = MORE GO!" LMFAO. Not only are those guys pioneers in the art of selling shit they don't design themselves, but they also have time for atv poetry. maybe someone should let smkmupbanshee know that, since 1dir just allegedly built one of these indy motors and guess what? he put them g3 reeds in it.


seriously, if you have any question whatsoever with RAD vs vForce, give some 250R builders some calls and ask them. I was asking my builder about getting my buddy's 250R rebuilt and discussed reed valves, and he was surprised how much he picked up with the vForce3's over a RAD valve. Dave Moore also has a good deal of experience with 250R's, and I'm pretty confident he'll be more than honest with you. Patriot Racing would be a another good source. One thing I can almost guarantee you is that if you asked them what they recommended to run for reeds, it would not be 1dir G3 reeds.

odaen
12-27-2005, 03:00 AM
sometimes, I carry things too far, and I apologize, crazyracer. so, as a token of my good will, I thought I'd offer up something that I had noticed, but never gave you feedback on. there's a serious mistake in your sig file. "1 Dir Racing SCT intake" is not in bold, which to most users might indicate they don't make as much of a difference in the performance of your bike as your

1 Dir racing G3Power Curve Reeds and spacer
1 Dir Racing Front Shocks. Zero Preload
1 Dir Racing/Kehin 38mm A.S. carb with boost jet

crazyracer
12-29-2005, 11:47 AM
SCT intake isn't bold simply because it isn't installed currently. I am doing a couple tests with 2 different reed styles...one set with SCT and one without. I shouldn't even have that in my profile i guess if i'm not currently running it, but i'm to lazy to take it back off the list. Once ice racing gets going (close....4 inches currently) then i will be running the intake with my carb and boost jet and i believe i am going with the medium stiffness carbon fiber reeds.

O, btw, anyone who said that boost jet was unnecessary for a low modded 250r of my caliber was wrong. I can tune that boost jet in to "Hit" at different rpm ranges, and it basically alters my power curve completely. I run a richer main jet and a leaner boost setting for the MX tracks, but for ice i will be running a leaner main jet, with a very rich boost setting. This will deliver much more of a hit when i come out of turns 2 and 4 and it really pulls hard for the entire straight. It fun to play with the setting and feel the diff.

Back to the reed/reed cage issue. Many people that i know have never even heard of 1 dir racing, so the reason they run V-force isn't because they have tested all of the competitors and are running the Best...but because they don't know of other alternatives. I'm not going to sit here and argue that dyno, i simply didn't know that modified banshees were capable of those pwr and rpm ranges. However, the more i talk to people about racing, the more i find that banshee owners tend to use V-force reeds, and many 250r owners run Carbon Tech reeds. (Yes, that is the majority of "A" class 250 riders in my area.) What I still don't understand is you guys say that V-force offers "twice" the surface area, but how the hell can they do that when V-force, Carbon Tech, and G3 reed cages all look almost identical? It comes down to what your particular bike runs the best on, and how much you pay for the reeds.

For me however, i run G3 reeds, not just because they are cheaper and fast as hell on my bike, but because i can call and talk to Will, or Chris and they will take time out of their day to help me with shock tuning, carb settings, tire pressure issues (run nitrogen instead of air to decrease inflation when racing), and engine modding. When you buy G3 reeds, you don't buy just reeds, you get the support of the people who make the reeds too. Can you acutally say that for V-force?

odaen
12-29-2005, 01:14 PM
are you sponsored by 1dir? because G3 reeds are more expensive than vforce reeds. and no, I doubt seriously that if you called moto tassinari that you'd get setup info for your shocks and running nitrogen in your tires.
the builders I talked about above have heard of G3 reeds though. and guess what they recommend. it ain't g3's.

369DuneBunny
12-29-2005, 07:47 PM
i think he is. . . .

crazyracer
12-30-2005, 11:06 AM
You seriously never heard of running nitrogen in your tires? you got to be kiddingm me. Nitrogen doesn't expand as much when it gets heated. I got that bit of information for go-cart racing...but nevertheless it applies to all forms of racing. Yes i am sponsored by them, but i'm not just saying shit to get a plug in for their name. I honesly believe that they are an exceptional group people who take pride in the people they support and it shows through every single time you call, or email them.

This may sound dumb too, but I'm not familiar with moto tassinari

flotek
12-30-2005, 11:43 AM
You seriously never heard of running nitrogen in your tires? you got to be kiddingm me. Nitrogen doesn't expand as much when it gets heated. I got that bit of information for go-cart racing...but nevertheless it applies to all forms of racing. Yes i am sponsored by them, but i'm not just saying shit to get a plug in for their name. I honesly believe that they are an exceptional group people who take pride in the people they support and it shows through every single time you call, or email them.

This may sound dumb too, but I'm not familiar with moto tassinari


hey man ,theres nothing wrong with builder pride ,and i agree, its nice to be able to get friendly advise from a rcaing company over the phone . you just have to realize that the delta vforce (made by the company called moto tasannari) have twice the flowing surface area of carbon fiber reed material which will have the ability to move twice the fuel/air . more flow =more go. every nationally recognized atv engine builder in america (who doesnt have a vested interest in their reed product ) would agree the delta vforce are the best reed cage induction setup.and i have no doubt that your mossaberger/G3 reeds offer you a power gain over stock reeds. also on the boost jet performance gains you mentioned,i think you had a lean pilot and/or needle to have noticed any gain i n the lowend rpms ,just my opinion

crazyracer
12-30-2005, 01:36 PM
hey man ,theres nothing wrong with builder pride ,and i agree, its nice to be able to get friendly advise from a rcaing company over the phone . you just have to realize that the delta vforce (made by the company called moto tasannari) have twice the flowing surface area of carbon fiber reed material which will have the ability to move twice the fuel/air . more flow =more go. every nationally recognized atv engine builder in america (who doesnt have a vested interest in their reed product ) would agree the delta vforce are the best reed cage induction setup.and i have no doubt that your mossaberger/G3 reeds offer you a power gain over stock reeds. also on the boost jet performance gains you mentioned,i think you had a lean pilot and/or needle to have noticed any gain i n the lowend rpms ,just my opinion


well, you pretty much summed it up. Your right.