Methanol in a nitro engine?

[bshee]

i'm pretty sure this guys isn't doing it becuase he doesn't have an extra 5 bucks....the guys experimenting and from the looks of it it seems like he is finding some usefull results. probly the same way those types of fuels were created, some dude mixing shit up in his garage and experimenting till something works good...possibly better then the previous norm

[88mxR]

Nitro has it's own oxygen source so more fuel can be used and more power can be made. If you switch to all methanol (an alcohol) then you will probably need more air to run properly. I don't know how tunable those things are, but from a fuel standpoint you will need more oxygen.

[bshee]

i wonder if there is some type of aviation fuel that could be used...i think therers stuff in those to help compensate for the lack of oxygen

[banchee]

Originally Posted by mgty3whlr

You are killing me!! If you are trying to save a dime, why don't you hit the kitchen cabinet and use some vegetable oil and the use some rubbing alcohol from the bathroom closet?

My response to mgty, is that vegetable oil won't burn in these small engines. There is no where near enough compression to ignite it. And like somebody said, its not that I can't afford the fuel, its just the thought that if I can get something similar, for under 1/5 the price, why the hell not??? And I'm not disregarding anything anybody says though, because I did say "all input welcome". As far as the nitromethane carrying in extra oxygen, that's true. And without, there should be some kind of power loss. As how to get more air and fuel in there, I'm not too sure on what to do about that, aside from possibly doing some port work, and using the carb from a larger engine. I really don't want to get into porting though, with 9 ports on the K4.6, I have no idea as to where to begin, I would more than likely F#@! it up royally. A simpler three port motor wouldn't be such a big deal, but that would just be too easy wouldn't it.
My results seem to have improved some more. The engine appears to run slightly cooler. This doesn't make sense to me though. Usually when you switch to a higher nitro content, you run cooler (thats what I've heard at least). And now that I'm running none, and running cooler, I'm baffled. Oh well, don't question it I say.

And for those of you who think I'm some stupid moron for doing this, just ask yourself, just because something seems a little outside the box, out of the norm, does that make it wrong? Do you always play by the rules? I'm just out there trying to find something better, and most importantly of all, cheaper. Haha. Yep, I'm a tight-a$$. There seems to some slight interest in this, so I'll keep posting my findings for those who are interested.
And thanks to whoever posted what oil they mix with the alcohol, that should help out a lot.

[Paulie B]

I respect your goal to find a cheaper alternative to off the shelf fuel. Without the nitro it will run but will be seriously lacking on power. Buying fuel is just one of those things you got to do. With the Hazmat fee's now it wouldn't be any cheaper to buy the nitro separatly and mix you own even if you already had a local alcohol and oil supply.

[banchee]

I only have to drive about 30 minutes to get my methanol. As opposed to an hour to get to the hobby store. As I said before, there is a power drop, but its not as bad as everyone thinks it will be. My Savage will still wheely like its goin out of style.

[mgty3whlr]

My point is....these motors have been out for 30+ years and there has been people that have done the mixing of different fuels and oils with no success!

The bottom line is : use the fuel that the have to offer.. so the price is a bit salty but there is a reason for that , It works !

Besides, why would you want to destroy a perfectly running motor with a test that someone has already already done?

[88mxR]

If you are considering anything, you may want to try butanol. It has a higher octane number than methanol (113 to 107). The advantage of methanol is that it can accept a higher compression ratio. If butanol can take the high compression, than it may be a good alternative source. I believe the higher octane number indicates it can take higher compression.

Heats of combustion: (energy released per gram)
Methanol - 5.4 kcal/g
Ethanol - 7.2
Butanol - 8.8
gas - 11.3
Nitromethane - 11.22

Another factor is the oxygen content. Methanol 50%, Butanol 22%, Nitromethane 52.4%. The more oxygen, the higher the fuel/air ratio and the more fuel the cylinder can take per stroke. The combination of a high heat of combustion and high fuel/air ratio make nitro the best fuel. The butanol may require too much oxygen to create decent power, but it may be worth a try.

[banchee]

Looks like you've done some studying too 88mxr. I've known that methanol cannot compare to gasoline as far as how much energy is released when combusted, and nothing compared to the nitromethane. I dont know if butanol would work because of its higher octane. You were right in saying that a higher octane can handle a higher compression, but thats not 100 % correct. Octane is an ignition retarder. The higher the octane, the higher the compression needs to be to ignite it properly and entirely. Because of the butane's low O2 content, that would probably make it a lesser candidate for an internal combustion engine, just like you said. I am surprised that gasoline and nitromethane have a near identical amount of energy released. I would have guessed that nitromethane would be up near 15 or so. This sheds some new light and a new possibility. My next question is, how much compression do these little engines run? I have no way to check how many psi is there. If anybody knows, that would be helpful. If it is not too high, maybe a mix of gasoline and methanol could be a viable alternative. Gasoline replacing the nitromethane. Would they mix though, an alcohol and a petroleum based fuel?
Here's one more question. My banshee has the stock domes in it. A 6.5:1 compression, according to the owners manual. Why premium pump gas, 93 octane? Who knows why?

[88mxR]

Gas has a lot of energy but it requires too much oxygen. I don't remember the number, but you can use several times more fuel per stroke with nitro. That and the explosiveness of nitro compounds makes it a superior fuel.
Methanol is a better race fuel than gas despite having less than half the energy per gram. Fuel/air ratio along with the compression it can safely take makes it produce more power. If power was just based on heats of combustion, I'd be running my truck on McDonalds.